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Post by obsessive24 on Nov 11, 2011 8:19:13 GMT -5
I had various discussions with various people over the years about this one. It'll be interesting to hear others' views on what you want out of feedback and how you go about giving it to other people. Imma ramble a bit because I suspect the thoughts are made up of a number of moving parts, but we'll see where it goes.
For me the situation basically boils down to: no one is compelled to give me feedback, so any feedback I receive is, at a basic level, very gratefully received. That said, I know I'm not the only person who posts a vid that I'm really proud of, and then I sit there and look at the feedback I get, and there's always that sense of, this comment doesn't quite hit the spot for me. When it's purely about the technical aspects (look, you matched the visuals to the music!), or maybe when it's of the "yay, vid!" variety. I don't know if I communicated all that I felt I wanted to communicate. I'm not sure if I've really connected with the person who just wrote me feedback. And even when I do occasionally receive feedback that really does resonate and connect, there's always that insatiable sense of, why isn't there more comments like this? How many people did I truly reach with this vid?
LI want to emphasise that I really don't mean to discourage people who write feedback focussing on the technical, or short sweet "yay vid!" feedback. Vidders don't get enough feedback as it is and the last thing I want is to make anyone think their feedback is not good enough to be given. But I do want to foster an atmosphere and some kind of mindset that maybe we can improve upon how we provide feedback, and the kinds of feedback that we provide, to make that communication process more satisfying on both ends.
So then I think about how I'm trying to communicate something in a vid that doesn't necessarily communicate well in words, and that's why I started vidding in the first place, and then I wonder if it's placing too much of an onus on the viewer to be able to translate their viewing experience into words and communicate that back to me, even where they fully connected with the vid. Isn't the point of the vid, to some extent, to circumvent having to say your piece in words? How does that then reconcile with having to write feedback in words?
Should feedback be more associative? Should we try and explore different ways of giving feedback, something that goes beyond praise or critique but really tries to delve into how the vid made the viewer feel, and any associated concepts and thoughts? I sometimes think of drawing a little doodle in response to a vid rather than writing, but I'm not sure if that would express my reaction any better, especially since I'm a crap artist.
And of course the eternal problem of not having enough time - "this vid moved me terribly, one day I shall sit down and write the vidder a 10,000 word commentary on exactly why I love it so." And I never do. It's something that I really want to change, though. I want to help foster an atmosphere where we can give meaningful feedback on a semi-regular basis, and discuss and develop ways in order to make that feedback more pertinent to the vidder's goals and more resonant with what they're trying to achieve. I even know that, if I want to do it, I have to just sit down and commit to doing it, one vid at a time. It's just so hard to take that first step, and as usual, it's much easier to just sit here and ponder about it, rather than doing it. I vaguely remember that a group of people(?) may have in the past launched an initiative of writing a piece of feedback a day, and that would be awesome to bring back.
So this is a rambly mess. But I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.
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Post by fabella on Nov 11, 2011 9:20:41 GMT -5
I know what you mean. On the subject of giving feedback, I was pretty good at it a few years back but I've lost that somehow. It's frustrating, because I remember when I was able to leave atleast 1000 word comments detailing exactly why and how and when and what about a video popped for me, but I've done that less and less over the years, and not because of a lack of moving videos. I think it would be a good personal goal, for me, to get back to that place, at least a little, because I think you're right, it fosters creativity. People recieve a comment like that, and they think, "huh, that worked for the audience, I wonder how I can manipulate them next," which I think is totally awesome. If I could post just one comment here and there on videos that I truly dig that make the editor feel connected to their audience it would complete that communication circle. I used to really love digging into a video and seeing what makes it tick. Good times!
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Post by obsessive24 on Nov 11, 2011 11:56:10 GMT -5
I think, if there's enough support and interest, it would be awesome to make a small concerted movement where a group of us could be like, right, we'll vow to generate two proper pieces of feedback per week, or something. Have a goal that you could work towards. It's just that I feel always so pumped full of good intention, then I get home and somehow the evening's gone and I never get around to leaving the feedback that I want to leave (not to mention the vidder sorely deserves).
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xandra
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Post by xandra on Nov 11, 2011 12:13:47 GMT -5
I've never been good at giving feedback. I have the visual to words disconnect. Also I dl and don't always look at it in a timely fashion. It's different when I beta I can get technical and nitpicky. So If I really like sometime I say it I never know why I like it. I think Astarte has the part of my brain that knows how to talk about them. When I get feedback I'm usually happy with the bare minimum. It's always strange when someone write me a mini essay about a vid seeing something in it that I may have or may not intended or something I thought anyone else would pick up on.
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Post by astarte on Nov 11, 2011 12:47:46 GMT -5
When I started out vidding, I was really good at giving feedback, but it's been years since I've sat down and analysed in writing a vid. It's too time-consuming and a real effort for me to get my emotions into words. Even when I know I would make someone's day with it. And like Xandra, I'm gracious about any kind of feedback, because I know, it must be hard for some people to leave a note. I'm too comfortable to lurk, so I get it.
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Post by dragonchic on Nov 11, 2011 13:27:31 GMT -5
It's funny, my vids watched to vids feedbacked ratio these days is almost 1:1 and yet because my vid-watching has plummeted I still feel like a delinquent. TBH I sometimes find the super long essays intimidating when I go to leave feedback myself because on some level I'm like, "What can I possibly say that this person hasn't said?" But I know vidders appreciate any and all feedback so I get over it.  I tend to use timestamps when I decide to leave really detailed feedback because it's just easier for me to organize my thoughts chronologically. Plus the mere sight of timestamps seems to be enough to make vidders go starry-eyed and overlook the lack of real insight in what I'm saying.  If I'm not leaving super-long feedback I still make sure to mention at least one detail specific to that vid, like my favorite moment. I know that's probably not enough to really convey a connection but I know I really appreciate anytime a feedbacker mentions exactly what they liked about a vid. Though of course, I value any and all feedback, including comments like "Awesome vid!"  |
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Post by obsessive24 on Nov 11, 2011 18:27:25 GMT -5
It's always strange when someone write me a mini essay about a vid seeing something in it that I may have or may not intended or something I thought anyone else would pick up on. I think my mindset has changed over the years about people seeing things that I didn't intend. I used to be a bit  and just, ooookay, but now I find myself quite liking it when people tell me what they see even if it's entirely not what I intended. I think a large part of that is because then that is a gateway into a conversation, and while that conversation could go the way of "no, you're seeing it wrong, my interpretation is the only correct interpretation because I'm the one who made it", it could also be a much more... collaborative...? and certainly less antagonising conversation about the boundaries of what you intend and what other people see. Increasingly, that's the kind of conversation that I really find myself wanting to have - just trading viewpoints that arise from the same piece of artwork. But, okay, the point you make about having the words to visual disconnect? That's what I was sort of getting at when I was saying maybe it's easier to respond to a vid in a doodle rather than words. I don't know if that makes any sense in practice, but do you think it's possible to present feedback in a way that's not necessarily language-based? I'm totally just pulling notions out of my arse here, but this is kind of a brainstorming exercise for me.  TBH I sometimes find the super long essays intimidating when I go to leave feedback myself because on some level I'm like, "What can I possibly say that this person hasn't said?" But I know vidders appreciate any and all feedback so I get over it. You mean long essays like the ones that you leave? Seriously though, I know what you mean and that long comments can scare off other commenters. And I think that's a shame, because if you do start writing, you probably do find that you will bring a somewhat different viewpoint, at least in how you express it. Plus the mere sight of timestamps seems to be enough to make vidders go starry-eyed and overlook the lack of real insight in what I'm saying. ZOMG! Everyone will be onto you now! I definitely agree with the mentioning at least one specific detail that stands out for you personally. It doesn't take much more time (if you were already leaving a comment) and does personalise the comment and, as you said, appreciated. And this is a question for everyone - what about constructive feedback? Quite often I'd be hearing lamentations about how feedback culture seems to have gone less critical and now everyone is playing nice and only saying good things, I guess with the implication that they are leaving unsaid the aspects they didn't like. Would you prefer that there is more constructive feedback? Stuff that's well-intentioned, with suggestions of how to practically work around aspects that are being criticised? A proviso to that is that I guess there always needs to be that understanding that this is just one person's opinion about what's best for your vid and your vidding, and you may well not agree with that vision. But in any case I really would like to see more of that sort of well-intentioned criticism. (Preferably written in a nice, non-condescending tone!) |
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tm
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Post by tm on Nov 11, 2011 18:55:46 GMT -5
It's just so difficult when you don't know the vidder. There was a vid I was going to add to the rec section today, because I found it to be a very moving, gut-wrenching vid about the death of a character. But the last shot included credits that did not work for me at all. The credits cheapened a high-end looking vid. Do I bother mentioning something like that? These days I have to know the vidder well enough to know if they really want my honest opinion.
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Post by obsessive24 on Nov 11, 2011 19:06:57 GMT -5
The credits cheapened a high-end looking vid. Do I bother mentioning something like that? These days I have to know the vidder well enough to know if they really want my honest opinion. I totally agree with that. Even though I've recently puffed myself up with resolve that I will start writing proper concrit again (after a long period of only saying nice things or saying nothing at all), I do find myself only saying it to people I know well. The reasons for me are twofold: (1) like you said, I know they do want my honest opinion, because it's always a slap in the face where you spend time and energy giving concrit to someone who says they want it only to have them turn and bite when you take them at their word; but also (2) I know those vidders well enough to know what they are capable of. In a lot of the cases what I was criticising was the fact that I think they may have taken some shortcuts, and that I honestly thought they could have made the vid much better if they'd just tweaked a few small things and spent a bit more time, all of which was entirely within their capacity. And that sort of comment I don't think I can make unless I knew quite intimately what they can do and where they are in their development. |
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Post by thandie on Nov 12, 2011 9:48:24 GMT -5
I think, if there's enough support and interest, it would be awesome to make a small concerted movement where a group of us could be like, right, we'll vow to generate two proper pieces of feedback per week, or something. This is a great idea, and I support it. Being one of those people that forget to watch vids because I either have no time or I don't check LJ often enough, I'd like this to be the place where I correct this horrible non-habit of mine. Of course, like I mentioned earlier, I also feel that my feedback could be considered unnecessary or, say, unwanted, so maybe I can also start to work on freeing myself of this prejudice. |
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Post by obsessive24 on Nov 12, 2011 9:52:05 GMT -5
A good place to start might be our tiny neglected new vids board! ;D I don't know how well it'll eventually stick as a place to share vids and feedback, but right now there are pitifully few vids posted there that some feedback will certainly liven things up. And we can practice our feedback skills there at the same time! |
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Post by thingswithwings on Nov 12, 2011 10:51:13 GMT -5
I started out in fic fandom and was there for years and years before first discovering vids and then teaching myself to vid, and frankly I was really surprised at the difference in feedback culture between the fic fandoms I'd been in and the vid fandoms I moved into. I think of most vids as the equivalent of a long plotty story - just based on how much work it takes to make a really good 3 minute vid and how much you can communicate in a really good 3 minute vid - but vids get nowhere near the kind of feedback that you get on a long plotty story.
When you think about it, it makes sense, since people in fic fandoms are already rolling around in text, and also it's easier to respond to words with words, I think. But I was nonetheless shocked to see vids that I adooooored get lots of comments, but very few in-depth comments. I often feel like a weirdo for writing my, whatever, two paragraphs of comment. When I look at the comments on a vid, my comment often stands out because it's SO LONG, but that never happens when I look at comments on a story.
As a vidder, I've certainly received in-depth feedback that made me really proud and vindicated, but more often on multifandom vids that had a social/political message/critique than on character- or show-driven vids. Maybe because that kind of vid makes the work and thought that goes into vidding more obvious to the casual viewer? I dunno.
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Post by winterjasmine on Nov 12, 2011 11:28:09 GMT -5
This whole post? exactly how I feel when I try to give feedback. I want to share my joy about the vid, but also say something meaningful, to repay, for want of a better word, the effort and skill that has gone into making the vid. To show the vidder how and why their vid touched me. Most often though, I completely fail to put that into words and end up with a 'yay vid' type of comment. I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head when you said So then I think about how I'm trying to communicate something in a vid that doesn't necessarily communicate well in words, and that's why I started vidding in the first place, and then I wonder if it's placing too much of an onus on the viewer to be able to translate their viewing experience into words and communicate that back to me, even where they fully connected with the vid. Isn't the point of the vid, to some extent, to circumvent having to say your piece in words? How does that then reconcile with having to write feedback in words? In fact, sometimes when people make insightful, detailed, intelligent posts like yours, I kinda feel the same way, and end up just muttering 'I totally agree' and wandering back into lurk mode  So, uh, yeah. 'Yay vid!' Jaz |
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Post by sweetestdrain on Nov 12, 2011 11:42:26 GMT -5
As a vidder, I adore long, detailed feedback -- well, as anyone would! -- but I think it's really dangerous to play into this notion that a lot of casual vidwatchers seem to have in which they think they aren't smart (or something) enough to leave a comment because they have nothing to say beyond "I liked that." Everyone knows how to talk about fic because we're all trained to react to narrative -- it was so cool when Tony Stark did that thing with the arc reactor! omg he and Steve got married and it was awesome! -- but with vids, narrative is by nature a little bit more subjective, and there seems to be this impression that you need to be really visually attuned and know a lot of vidding/editing terminology so you can leave a "good" comment.
I mean, this isn't to say that I haven't also received comments that somehow don't hit the spot, but there are generally other factors at work than lack of detail. Honestly, I'm just glad to know that someone is out there watching and enjoying my work. I'd rather have 10 "I liked it" comments than 2 "I liked your use of jumpcuts and internal motion" ones.
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Post by legoline on Nov 12, 2011 11:52:14 GMT -5
winterjasmine I agree (No, seriously, I second everything you've said there.) I already mentioned this in obsessive24s "Loki" thread but a reason why I hesitate to give long, insightful comments is because I'm so new to this and I feel I don't have the "knowledge" to properly comment on narrative and technique. I get super self-conscious and terrified to step on the vidder's toes. I mainly appreciate videos on a visual level--I can get completely giddy over atmospheric vids and tiny scenes where the movement matches a certain bit in a song (Charmax does that so well, there's one bit on "Come On" where...okay, okay, stopping now ), but the nuances of storytelling tend to elude me. That is not to say I don't get the story at all, but I guess I'm mostly fascinated by how music and clips correspond to one another, thus creating a certain atmosphere/mood. (I am really, really trying to watch out for the storytelling more, honest, and I hope this forum will help me with that.) However, that makes it kind of tricky for me to give detailed comments on the narrative etc. . I remember before Charmax posted "Fascination" she sent it to me since it is my favourite film, and I was terrified about giving her useful feedback. The long rambly I did eventually send took me quite a while. That aside, I do try to point out things I particularly like when I can. I'll work on the rest. EDIT: sweetestdrain Ha, you sort of commented to my comment before I commented. Nice
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If I'm not leaving super-long feedback I still make sure to mention at least one detail specific to that vid, like my favorite moment. I know that's probably not enough to really convey a connection but I know I really appreciate anytime a feedbacker mentions exactly what they liked about a vid. Though of course, I value any and all feedback, including comments like "Awesome vid!" 
and just, ooookay, but now I find myself quite liking it when people tell me what they see even if it's entirely not what I intended. I think a large part of that is because then that is a gateway into a conversation, and while that conversation could go the way of "no, you're seeing it wrong, my interpretation is the only correct interpretation because I'm the one who made it", it could also be a much more... collaborative...? and certainly less antagonising conversation about the boundaries of what you intend and what other people see. Increasingly, that's the kind of conversation that I really find myself wanting to have - just trading viewpoints that arise from the same piece of artwork.
