Beta Mart

[obsessive24]

I think a checklist would be really useful! Like you said, it may be pretty different between different people, but I think it would give a solid set of tickyboxes that you could at least look through and make sure you covered off all that you wanted to cover off.

[thatyourefuse]

... okay.

Well, this is sooner than expected, but someone has to offer themself up as the test case, yes?

Here be the Bad Draft of "Jacob Marley's Chain," a vid for a British miniseries no one has ever seen*, which may make it a poor choice for public beta-ing, but there we have it.

Basically, I want to make this as good as I'm currently capable, so -- don't hold back. (I already know I have cutting issues and I don't even know how comprehensible this is going to be to someone who doesn't know the source. Which, actually, is even more melodramatic than that -- I axed a whole tangle of subplots -- and very, very nicely acted.) However, do bear in mind that I'm using WMM, so my effects palette is pretty severely limited.

And, well, there it is. Thank you in advance.

*vibrates*

* _{if you're interested in seeing it, er, drop me a PM}

[sweetestdrain]

Oooh, a draft! I don't know who all is planning on jumping on the beta train, but I've watched it and I have some thoughts for this first round of beta -- just not enough time to sit down and put them in order at the moment. Hopefully I will get a chance to do that tonight or tomorrow.

(And I have never even HEARD of this show, so I'm loving trying to piece the story together from the vid. So intense! That's definitely going to result in a different kind of beta than one from someone who knows the show, though -- it could be interesting to compare reactions with someone who's familiar with the source.)

[thatyourefuse]

sweetestdrain -- wow, thank you for watching! (I am trying so hard not to be a gushy fangirl right now. So hard.)

And yeah. No one has ever heard of this damn thing except me and the perfectly lovely Hermione Norris fanatic who talked me into watching it with her. (That probably makes it a really odd choice for a first vid, except the song was so good and the source had a lot of excellent things going for it. Like being only three episodes long, that was a big one.) So I'm really worried about narrative transparency, here; it's a lot of plot and I'd like at least some of it to come across, you know?

[gnattery]

I don't think much of the plot comes across, but what does come through is a great sense of messed-up-ness. Like, watching this, I just know that this show would be a huge emotional gutpunch, even though I don't really know what's going on or why it's so intense. If plot transparency is what you're going for, then I don't think you've really achieved it, but I don't feel the vid needs it. The emotions are coming through loud and clear though, and I think that's what's important.

You got my other comments on it in chat, so I won't go into them here as well.

[sweetestdrain]

Hey! Okay! It's so awkward to kind of leap in like this, so -- my name is sweetestdrain (or you can call me Morgan, heh) and I'm really excited to talk about your vid draft. This is your first official-ish vid, right? I'm impressed!

To begin this oh so public beta, because you named narrative transparency as the thing you're most worried about right now, I'm going to focus on that and give you my impressions of the plot based on... knowing absolutely nothing. Hee. First, though, let me say that I really enjoyed this draft! I didn't know what was happening, but the opening of the vid, in which the characters are intercut with the blooming rose (symbolism! passion!) grabbed me right away. I also really liked the recurring images later in the vid of the poetry book, the young girl(s), and things shattering (more symbolism!). This source is gorgeous, and you're doing some cool things with it. You've also done a really nice job of setting up the blonde woman as our POV in this vid by including the brief b/w shot of her at the very beginning.

I'm going to look up a general plot outline of this series in a moment so that I don't have to keep calling the characters "Girl" and "Hot Dude" and "Older Blonde Woman," but before I do that, here's my attempt at figuring out what's happening based on a few close viewings.

Older dude and blonde woman ("Jacob Marley" and the POV character) are in a relationship; older dude forms intense connection with blonde girl who meanwhile is in a relationship with hot dude. Hot dude gets jealous and breaks up with her; blonde woman is V. Concerned. Older dude tries to distract himself from blonde girl by hooking up with Thelma from Hex, who is some sort of shrink or motivational speaker. Blonde girl breaks up with hot dude boyfriend (or is broken up with), who is then... stabbed by a private investigator? He and blonde woman get involved, possibly out of anger at their significant others. At some point, older dude discovers that the blonde girl is his biological daughter (I will be embarrassed if I'm reading this wrong, but on the very first viewing my main thoughts were, "oh man, love quadrangle," and "OMG IS THAT INCEST"). There is EVEN MORE DRAMA. They can't stay away from each other, but it's WRONG. (Genetic sexual attraction is a real thing, it happens all the time!) She is in some sort of accident and dies. Older dude despairs, blames himself, and commits suicide. Blonde woman, meanwhile, has hot dude's baby.

Feel free to laugh and tell me how absolutely wrong I am, hee. Let me actually look up the plot now...

Okay, so, I haven't found an incredibly good write-up, but these seem to be the things that might be in the vid that simply went over my head:
- Peter and Prue (?) know that they are father and daughter.
- Prue is Cassie's (?) daughter (I think that interaction in the cafe actually made me think they weren't related -- that conversation looks so awkward!)
- Prue and Gavin (?) are married, and domestic violence is involved (this would explain the earlier clip of Prue's bruised face, but I didn't catch the implication)

And a few things I'm still confused about:
- Why does Gavin get stabbed?
- Who is Paula? (Is this Gavin's tattoo and he burns it off? Couldn't quite tell.)
- There's a brief clip of a ripped-up funeral notice -- what's the importance?
- Who's the girl who runs away from home at 2:15-ish?

So, all that said, with a storyline that's this complex, I think the thing to focus on is not necessarily making all the plot clear, but working to emphasize the elements of the plot that work on a more emotional/character-based level. Right now, I'm really getting a sense of the push and pull and the wrongness of the interactions between these five people, and to some extent, I don't need to know things like who's married to who, as long as I get a sense of how they relate -- and you're doing that! Some general ideas/questions for you:

- Which plot elements do you most want to make sure are super-clear? You might be able to set up some ideas a little more clearly just by lingering on significant shots (for instance, the family photos could clue us in to the relationships if they're shown for a little longer, to give the viewer more time to register who's in them), or by playing with the sequence of some visuals.

- Which characters do you want to focus on most, or do you want it sort of evenly balanced between the primary four? (Thanks to how you're structuring the vid after the song's narrative, we're getting some great insight into Peter's struggle with himself. We also see a lot of Prue, which seems appropriate as she is where most of Peter's focus lies. What perhaps isn't as clear -- but then again, I don't know if this is what you're going for in the vid -- is a sense of Cassie's struggle, too.)

- I get the impression that the narrative is roughly chronological, with a few flashes back to show us Peter and Prue's ...familial... relationship, but I can't be entirely sure without source knowledge. Is that pretty accurate, or are you structuring the narrative a little differently?

- I don't want to get too much into the editing of the vid yet -- and I'll leave nitpicky stuff for when you say you're ready for it, because I think things like cutting and timing are more important to focus on AFTER you get your big picture issues figured out -- but I will go ahead and suggest, even as you're trying to iron out the narrative, trying to find a few places in which to let your clips breathe. There are some gorgeous shots in this vid -- Peter staring at the wall of drawings (in Prue's room?) and up in the hot air balloon come to mind especially -- and really letting those spin out a little longer so the viewer has time to absorb the visuals will do a lot for the emotional tone of the vid.

- - - Same thing with faces, actually; it makes sense for violent shoving or back-and-forth interactions to be cut a little quickly, especially with where you have those placed in the music, but even just one or two places where we get to see Cassie's face in close-up for a while can help root us more in her head a bit.

- - - The slower lyrical sections of the song are a great place to play around with variations in clip length and pacing -- try maybe a sequence of shorter and mid-length clips followed by a long clip that takes up almost an entire line, see what happens. Experiment!

(I'm a bit biased because I love using long clips, though -- if you find the right clips, they can either work with the music, draw your viewer into the scene, or make the viewer desperately uncomfortable because they can't look away, they can't go on to the next thing yet! And with a vid like this, it might not be a bad idea to make your viewer feel uncomfortable sometimes, hee.)

Oh my god, I'm going to stop now because I'm slamming you with a HUGE WALL of text. Please, let me know if I'm being helpful or if I'm off-base, ask me any and all questions you want, and maybe we can go back and forth until you feel like tossing another draft up for grabs. If you'd like to talk about anything in more detail, too, perhaps we could go on IM for more of an actual discussion, and post the chat log for people to peruse later? It's up to you! This is the part where (for me, at least) beta kind of has to be personalized to what you want to focus on most at this moment, and prioritizing where you want to go from here, etc. -- which I'm finding is a little awkward for me to get a feel for in a public venue.

Have I mentioned that you're really brave for putting one of your first vids up for public beta like this? Because you're ridiculously brave. I would probably die. Thanks so much for letting me babble about your vid draft!

[thatyourefuse]

Okay -- this is just to say received, deeply appreciated, am very grateful, will respond when I'm wider awake and have digested a little. Thankyouthankyouthankyou.

[kuwdora]

Hi, I'm going to chime in with a few observations on your vid and suggestions for vid-watching in terms of watching how vidders use short/lingering clips to help create mood/atmosphere. This is with the caveat I'm sort of running out of steam at the end of my day so if these are kind of scattered/rambly notes, I apologize in advance!

Onto the squee!

I'm really impressed with what a great draft this is. I'm unfamiliar with the source as well as the song but I know good British TV when I see it in a vid, that's for darn sure. You've def. got me interested in what's going on even though I can't tell you anybody's names. The pain, the betrayal and frustration are all very clear- a credit to the way you used recurring visuals, which, when coupled with your song choice made it very memorable.

I agree with a lot of what sweetestdrain said above in terms of letting your clips breathe. There's some great recurring visuals--the tattoo/skin, Anthology of Poetry, the act of writing. I found myself wanting the shots to linger more on the tattoo--of which I couldn't actually read, was it her name? Someone's name? Linger on the first tattoo shot at least, to establish (1) what it is, (2) what it says, (3) indicate to the viewer that this is important for the recurring visuals and progression of the vid later.

Also I couldn't get a good idea of where the candle shot was supposed to be coming from. Restaurant, romance? Going back and rewatching the few seconds in a row, she was at an outdoor party and watching a couple dance? Those shots are really quite short to get the necessary visual set-up for what's happening here, I think.

also OMG I LOVE the sound of her wiping the picture frame at 0:29 on the guitar string squeak, that is amaaaazing. I'd love that to linger a bit more, too, for extra pow maybe?

It's got such a great feel throughout-- I am really taken in by the character's angstful journeys, particularly in how the music is slowly building at 1:55 and they're finally sitting in the dark. I'm particularly taken with the way you're using jumpcuts throughout to create a sense of urgency or to draw extra attention to what's happening in the clips.

I think I have more to say, but I've got to go to bed at some point, so let me finish writing up some vid suggestions to watch for editing and how people use clip length to help the progression of their story/enhance the tone or feeling.

I'd been trying to mentally tick through vids that would be similar enough in tempo as Jacob Marley's Chains and if I do think of something else after I dig out my hard drives, I'll be back to link to them. In the meantime, here are some links with a little bit of commentary on what I think or what to maybe look for when you're watching/rewatching.

sol-se.livejournal.com/457643.html
song: Speak for Me[ by Cat Powers, source: The Revenger's Tragedy

Solvi is renowned for being a vidder who has been using WMM for years and years because it works so well for her. Many vidders hop ship to a new editing program, whether it's vegas or premiere or a linux program because they want to be able to edit non-lineary (not in order).

The clips realllly linger in the opening part of the vid - even with the fighting clips, we still see the shot long enough to watch him knock them all down. But once the music picks up at 0:53 we get several abrupt edits and dramatic jumpcuts during the physical altercation. This works with the music and propels the vid forward both in terms of the pace and the plot. Solvi definitely favors jumpcuts at what I think are kind of random spots, but it's something I've come to identify as a signature in her work because it's something the recurs in her other vids. Throughout the rest of the vid, if you rewatch-- the shots are not as long as the beginning, nor are they as abrupt during the musical changes. The length here, I think, lets you actually feel the character's expressions, particularly at the 1:21 area. Cutting away too soon would just make me want MORE, and I think that's what sweetestdrain was trying to convey in her post about your vid - and I agree with her to an extent. It's tricky to find what feels/looks right for the song so you have to really play around. But I mean, even if you, the viewer, don't consciously recognize the ever-so-slight eye movement at 1:48, it's still there, intrinsic to the clip in that place in the timeline and it helps with the atmosphere and tone to let it linger like that. That split second glance he gives Eddie Izzard's character speaks so many VOLUMES.

The editing in JMC actually reminds me a bit of the way tearful_eye has put things together.

tearful-eye.livejournal.com/39320.html
music: Watercolor - source: Criminal Minds.

What I like about tearful_eye and she does this in a few of her vids, but in Watercolor particularly, is that when she wants to linger on a clip but still cut away, she uses a quick cross dissolve to go in and out, in and out and in that way she still gets to keep her clips short, but still linger for the dramatic feel. I think it would be interesting if you could watch this vid and then immediately after you're done watching, write down 3 visuals that still stick with you afterwards. Upon my first rewatch since she originally posted it, it was the coin in Spencer's hand, the balloon being let go but also transitioning into the picture frame and Spencer in the hallway with his gun levelled.


cherryice.livejournal.com/241342.html
music: I'll Follow You Tonight, source: Shelter

Cherry is one who stylistically, I think, leans towards sharper, shorter cuts in her vids and you can find other examples in her catalog if you look through her vid tag. She's actually been critiqued a number of times by her various betas for the clips not being long enough. Sometimes I might agree but more often I err on the side of appreciating the dynamic that her sharp cuts create with the type of music she tends to gravitate towards (as of late, it's much more hipster oriented pop).

In I'll Follow You Tonight, cherry utilizes similar methods that sol_se and tearful_eye use-- jumpcuts, cross dissolve transitions in order to linger on what I'd call the money shots (sunsets, kisses, EPIC awesome stuff). But the difference in what I see is how hyperaware cherry is with the internal movement. How people shift, turn, look. People walking in similar directions, turning their head in ways that are complimentary. It a very elegant flow that works with the guitar strumming.


I hope these few recs and notes give you an idea of how other vidders let the clips breathe and how they're utilizing some of the same technique and style that you employed in JMC (shorter clips, recurring images, jumpcuts).

anywho.

[legoline]

Can I just butt in to say that you all--thatyourefuse who offered her video and you beta folks--are amazing? I'm learning so much just reading your comments and you're not even talking about my vid.

So.

THANK YOU.

[obsessive24]

I'm really loving this as well. sweetestdrain - I especially like the open questions that you're asking. It feels very much a fact-finding mission, for both you and thatyourefuse. Looking forward to seeing how this discussion plays out, and how the vid changes as a result.

[rokikurama]

Wow--this is really cool.

I don't know if it's appropriate or not to offer up another draft for beta at this point, but I've got a draft for a vid that's a very different tone and thought it might be interesting for people to see betas on contrasting styles of vids?

This is a draft of my Jeeves and Wooster (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JeevesAndWooster) vid. It's quite short (just about a minute long), and I'm hoping it can be fun for people who know the source but also comprehensible and cute if you don't.

I'm currently working on cleaning up all of the footage in AE (only the music clips are touched up now) where I'm also going to try and even out the dark-light lighting issues. I'd love to hear about cutting and timing since I'm basically trying to make it fun and bouncy, highlighting the physical comedy of the series. I'm editing in Premiere.

I have it up as a private YouTube video here: youtu.be/sexZw45QCzE

(if it'd be too confusing or etc. to have two betas going, just lemme know and I'll pull this post!)

[obsessive24]

Roki - Trying to go light on rules, so my thinking is just to wait and see if someone takes you up on your offer? If we do get two different conversations going, it's up to y'all whether you want to keep it all here or split into a different thread. eunice may want to weigh in, since she started the thread.

[thatyourefuse]

Okay. I am thrilled and stunned and a little overwhelmed (in a nice way!), so I'm going to be replying in chunks, here:

sweetestdrain

* I am deeply impressed by your attempt to absorb plot from this damn thing, and your first list of bullet points is broadly correct, yes. (I'd summarize it, but I don't know where I'd start, and you wouldn't believe me.)

* As far as the second list:

- Gavin gets stabbed because he hit Prue.
- PAULA! Oh god. Okay. Oh, this all is going to sound ridiculous, but I promise you it works in context: Paula is Peter's daughter from a previous liaison. She came to him for help when she was placed with an abusive foster family, and he sent her away. (That's what's going on at 2:15-ish.) She died. (Which is what's going on with the obituary notice.) Gavin was her foster brother and he, um, cameafterPeter'sfamilyseekingrevenge.

... look, I did say melodramatic. It really DOES work in context!

* I probably should try and clue in the family relationships, yes.

* Sadly, I was trying for Cassie POV. Which is a dream I may have to abandon -- I mean, it's an amazing performance, but she's pretty reactive for most of the story, and the big moments are all very subtle and context-dependent. (Or dialogue-dependent, which is of course a nightmare.) So there's a limit to what I can do with it.

* Yes, roughly chronological.

* Okay, I can do this. I'm actually scared to death of long clips despite admiring them hugely in other people's work -- I may just possibly be afraid that, in a first vid, they read less as a stylistic choice and more as "damn baby vidders never know when to cut" -- but I can do this.

* You're being VERY helpful and on-base and IM sounds fantastic. My AIM name and my gmail/gchat address are in my profile, and I'm pingable whenever I happen to be on.

* I think what's coming across here is that I maybe have to not try for so much plot density? Or at least to reduce the amount of information per line? (I have a partial outline -- large image is large -- but I don't know how much help that is, because the parts of it I made after doing the first three verses and the bridge are mostly notes to self, and I put down one thing for the last verse and promptly did something completely else. But still.)

[thatyourefuse]

kuwdora

* Dude, thankyouthankyouthankyou. I am wildly flattered.

* Okay, so I'm getting an eensy weensy hint that a few people want me to slow it the hell down. I can work with this. I think I can even start to see where that might be useful. Although, aigh, that probably means losing a few clips. Dammit.

* Oh, lord, the sequence of him burning his arm (which is what is going on with the candle) is so -- it's not badly shot, but it's mostly done by implication and sound, which is hard to replicate. Apparently I have not succeeded. Hrm.

* 0.29 -- let's pretend I did that on purpose, yeah?

* Okay, I can definitely see what you're talking about here, especially with the first one -- incidentally, can I point out how hands-flailingly overwhelmed I am that you compared my work to ANY of these? -- but yeah. It's a question of rhythm? (Which in my case I have not got...) And I do see that I can't have all the shots weighted equally, or it gets to be both confusing and metronomic. And let's face it, it's confusing enough already.

* I had kind of semi-seriously sworn myself off cross-fades for this project -- I've been playing with them in a couple of others, and they're really a bit tricky to get right in WMM. I can't figure out how to control how many frames to overlap, and they can screw up the timing something royal. If you really think it would work, I could play with it.

* Oh, internal motion. I think that is one of the things I'm going to be working on for approximately ever. (Not that there is an overwhelming amount of motion in this one -- a certain amount of pushing and shoving, but I can't even tell you how many clips I have labeled a variant on "$character looks up.")

Thankyouthankyou!

[eunice]

I am loving this, especially since I am a crap beta so it's great to get a view of the process where I'm not on the receiving end.

I think it's fantastic more than one person wants to have a transparent beta (I am not that courageous) , but I'm wondering if it won't get lost in the thread. Roki, maybe it would be better to start a new thread with "Public Beta" somewhere in the subject line? And anyone else going forward who wants to do this doing the same. Separate threads for each public beta would maybe allow the focus to stay on that vid and leave this thread open for discussing the beta process and/or asking for a private beta match up?

I dunno, what do you guys think?