Structure and Narrative

[gnattery]

I'm not sure if this works as a separate thread topic or not, since it's often brought up in other threads as a matter of course, but it would be really nifty if we had a place to talk about it in particular. Personally, this is the aspect of vidding that I find the most challenging by far, but also the most fascinating.

Any conversations about structure and narrative are relevant and would be really interesting, I think. Does anyone have any overall thoughts about how narrative works in vids as opposed to other forms of storytelling? How do you think the shape of the song informs the structure that the vid will take? Answers will probably be very vague and nebulous, but that's ok, as we've said in other threads, discussions about vidding often are vague. I think another part of this thread could be about learning how to communicate with each other about that. Using examples should also be encouraged.

To start off with, I was hoping we might be able to follow up on conversations about the differences between vidding to longer songs as opposed to regular length ones. How to structure them to take up all that space on the timeline while keeping your message clear and without boring your audience.

[xandra]

I think the narrative of a vid is the merger of lyrics and story. Sometimes the story is what was in the actually source, sometimes it's what you can make the actually source feel like. The structure of which varies by the song and the lyrics. Lyrics are poetry and it doesn't have to be any one thing.

Best example I have is from my latest Doctor Who vid "Matches to Paperdolls. Astarte my usual beta doesn't watch it, so when I wanted actually opinions on the story I ask my mother and my sister. My mother is only helpful on the third watch when I push her to be critical and my sister was completely confused. I thought my sister would understand how vids work but she kept getting confused by the chronological shifting of storytelling. Even though the theme about two people being completely order from each other was part of the show she knew very well.

I was surprised because my sister does something similar to vidding. She takes drawings based on the Harry Potter book scenes and sets them to instrumental music. I realized when I watched her work it's all about order, about telling the actual story in order through the pictures and music was just to set the pace and mood. She told me she liked the vid but "The video as it is now tells the story that the music is telling but not their story as quite as well." as well as other thing about it being out of order. She likes things to be exactly what they were and I wanted to take the audience on a trip so they could feel the paradoxical nature of their relationship. We both kinda had to leave it at that. She was trying to be nice and so I avoid telling her that she just didn't get it.

About length of songs though. I always think of it more like strategy. If I can't reconcile theme, length and source but still want to do the song I tend just to cut the song down where I know I can vid at least 70% of it without resorting to too much off theme filler or scene creation.

[obsessive24]

As you noted gnat, I think it's a bit nebulous when there's no specific case study. In particular, the concepts of "narrative" and "structure" are both very large and somewhat ill-defined around the edges, so I suspect they'll represent different things to different people.

I think, very very generally, the form of the vid quite severely limits the scope of the stories you can tell when you compare it to other forms of art and communication. Anyone can vid what they like, of course, but in terms of what the audience is actually able to receive and interpret and process, I feel there are inherent limits, not just in the length of it but also in the "language" used. I always think vidding is a language unto itself, and lots of people are speaking different dialects, so we understand each other in varying degrees, and sometimes not at all. But that aside, I think you raise an important point about longer vids, because the length would give you a bit more manoeuvring room in terms of drawing out longer or more complex narratives... in theory anyway, and upon the premise that you already speak enough of the same language to understand each other.

As for how to maintain the audience's attention, I personally don't think there's a material difference between long and short vids. I've watched 2-minute vids that felt like they lasted forever, and I've watched 10-minute vids that seemed to take no time at all. I think it goes down to the clarity of storytelling and whether you can find a "plot thread" or character arc or motiviation, or something that seems to be leading the viewer down a path rather than just random pictures on a page.

(Which is not to say mood-oriented stream-of-consciousness vids don't work for me and don't hold my attention. They just don't seem to fit into this particular topic... or I can't make them fit, myself. )

It's also interesting to note where we derive meaning from canon (and by that I mean the actual meaning of the clip in the context of the source), and where the vidder imbues new or reading-deeper meanings (and by that I mean where the meaning is not at all related to the context of the source, as per AU vids, or where it *might* be, but mostly because the vidder presented it a certain way, as per slash vids as an example). When a vid has both, then there's an added layer of difficulty in working out where a vidder meant what. I wonder if this is wandering a bit away from the discussion of "narrative", but then I do think narrative is about generally the method of storytelling, and how you tell the story using what seems quite important to me.

xandra - that's a really good example with your sister. It does seem to me that there are vidders who are keen on following the canon story and setting that to music; and then there are vidders who are keen on somehow subverting or reinterpreting the story and setting that to music. And by "reinterpret", I don't mean only radical reinterpretations, but basically anything where the viewer is invited to view a certain character/pairing/event/etc through a particular lens - most of the time how the vidder themselves interpreted the subject matter. And to me it seems like these two approaches will have very different takes on what narrative is, how important it is, and how to construct it.

I mean, every vid must demonstrate the vidder's perspective to some degree... it's just that sometimes that perspective, to me, runs so close to the canon's own perspective that I can't really identify the vidder's voice beyond following the canon story. Whereas sometimes it's very clear that the vidder's perspective is something vastly different from the canon story. And everything else falls in between.

[eunice]

I think so much of structure and narrative in a vid is tied to the structure of the song being used that it's impossible to separate them. How does it build? Where are the natural shifts and transitions in the music itself that can be used to reflect the same in the visuals? How do any repeated musical or lyrical phrases reflect off each other or change meaning? Is the bridge a transition or a climax? And so on.

Is why I don't think the choice to edit or not edit a song or how should not be based on it's length, but rather how does the new structure of the song best serve the structure of the vid. How much vid can it support, and which parts of the song are/are not doing that. I fear that what is a good guideline (that for many vids and songs that answer falls around 3 minutes) becomes The Law about how long a vid 'should' be, rather than the underlying principles.

A song that either doesn't go anywhere musically or doesn't go where the vid is going when it needs to go there, isn't going to go anywhere narratively whether it's 2 minutes or 10 minutes long, and the opposite is also true. I know there's been a couple of times where I've edited a song not to make it shorter but to move a bridge up, or to swap verses around for that reason.

I think building narrative is so much easier once that structure is identified and altered to fit your needs if necessary. And sometimes it's not!

I have some vague thoughts on narrative itself that I'm still sorting out in my head, mostly to do with the importance of choruses or any repeated phrases (musical or lyrical) within the song that draws together connections and cohesiveness, but WORDS ARE HARD. If I can figure out how to say it I'll be back.

[astarte]

What Nicky said, about the dialects and vidding being a language on its own, rings true for me. My brother-in-law just gets my vids on a visceral level, even without source knowledge, while my best friend and significant other just get a dazed and confused look, whenever I show them one, even for sources they know well enough. The different approach they have to the visual medium is fascinating in itself.

I have to confess that the narrative is something I don't analyze as hard as I should. For me it's about what I want to say in a vid and then I arrange the clips in a way that translates the mood I'm aiming for. Like Xandra said, lyrics are poetry and there are countless ways to interpret them. You have to strive for the one interpretation that fits best with what you have in mind. I'm always amazed about the way, clip choice can make a innocent line feel sinister or profound or depressing. Or how you can dodge melodrama, make everything more complicated and sad.

For example my only clear goal for the narrative for 'God's Country' was that I didn't want to linger on Jo's death for three minutes from Dean's perspective. It wasn't about him, it was about her and her choices - That she wanted to become a hunter. I wanted to show her world and highlight her an agenda - the legacy of her father and what that meant to her. How Ellen's fear for her safety informed Jo's actions.

[obsessive24]

Nov 15, 2011 15:05:05 GMT -5 astarte said:

while my best friend and significant other just get a dazed and confused look

OMG, you're gonna laugh. I actually thought you and Xandra were a couple in RL. ;D It's all the dirty talk that did it!

Ahem, never mind me.

[astarte]

Oh Nicky, you forgot that I live in Germany? There's a whole lot of ocean between us. Heh. But yeah, we tend to show up as couple online. Plus Denis and Xandra have by now this weird relationship, in which it isn't odd that I give him a kiss from her or birthday wishes.

[legoline]

I really struggle with the narrative but then I have trouble detecting them in other vids as well. I guess I may have a similiar approach as astarte; for me it's all about the mood. I get vids on the "Chosen clips reflect this or that general mood and oh, look how nicely the clips work with the music!" and they touch me deeply on that level, but I usually don't understand a complex narrative that's going on throughout the vid.

Let's take Nicky's "Red" for example. I love that vid to death. I love how the clips are edited that they reflect the quieter and "louder" bits--like when there's this softer "You burn" and at the same time you get the dragon breathing fire on the sword; it's genius--and there's all this foreshadowing and Arthur being pushed by Uther to be a strong warrior and the fighting (and maybe possibly Merlin/Arthur? I'm more the Gen type, I wouldn't know :-p It works both ways, I guess) and by God it's such a pretty vid and the tragicness of it all but I'm really sorry, Nicky, if there's a deeper, complex narrative going on it's probably lost on me.

Which is probably why I'm struggling so much with getting a narrative into my vids. *pulls hair*

(See, remember those days when MTV would show all the "Making of"'s of such-and-such's new music video? The director would go, "Yes, and the story is that XY got cheated on by her boyfriend so she confronts him..." and I'd go -->O.o <-- even though I had probably seen the video a dozen times.)

@astarte You live in Germany? *high fives*

[obsessive24]

*shrug* Maybe Red isn't the best example of a vid with a narrative. Hmm, I never thought about it this way, but maybe the fact that it doesn't have a terribly strong narrative is the reason it's the most popular of all my vids (if you judge by comment count).

In any case, I wouldn't recommend forcing yourself to do something that doesn't come naturally to you. Some people specialise in beautifully atmospheric vids which suck you into a swirling emotional journey (buffyann especially comes to mind), that is as valid and as interesting as any other approach. I think, as long as the vid overall seems to follow some arc or direction, be it narrative, emotional, argument-presenting... anything like that, it'll be interesting to watch for me. In any of those instances, it's not the same as just throwing a bunch of random clips on the timeline.

ETA: reading over this, I think the driving factors for me, personally, would be some sort of purpose or intention. It doesn't even have to be articulated as such; I just have to feel like the vidder is intending the vid to go somewhere, intellectually or emotionally or whatever.

[astarte]

I was actually also thinking about 'Red' while replying - and couldn't put down the words, because the narrative is crystal clear and yet vague. I have a lot of feelings about this particular vid, okay? Lots and lots of feelings. For me the vid sums down to, 'This is Arthur Pendragon in all his glory.' Even the additional, '- as seen by Merlin', takes a bit away from the first statement. Knowing the legend and how it goes down, makes the vid just painful to watch. I always get chills when I see Mondred or Arthurs bowing head, when he gets the pride lecture from Uther and the complicated relationship these two share. The Lancelot/Gwen/Arthur foreshadowing just makes me sad for Arthur. And then there is Merlin protecting him and laying his life down, because really, who could resist such a beautiful tragedy?

And it's true mood and narrative vidders have both their place and you can include a strong narrative into a mood vid. I think we just weigh our options differently and approach a project from another angle. Xandra for example always comes from a canon place and integrates plot points. I go with what feels right, even when the clip is from a weak MotW ep, but if it resonates strongly with me, I'll keep it.

legoline: *high fives back*

[legoline]

@onsessive24 Oh, I didn't think that kind was vid was equaling just tossing random clips on a time line. Those clips have to be just as carefully chosen as if there were a stronger narrative.

The thing is, though, that I probably couldn't think of a video with a less vague narrative because I tend to not pay that close attention to that aspect of the vid. Then again, maybe the vids that I love best and watch over and over again are the very powerful and atmospheric vids that don't have a clear narrative. (And holy cow, is "Red" one amazing vid.)

@astarte I second everything you said about "Red"

[xandra]

Yes, Astarte was right, I do start from a place of canon. It's hard to explain how my brain interprets structure cause it just happens but I always feel I need to prove a thesis in the vid. I have the premise the scene that just fits a verse of lyric perfectly and then the rest of the vid just proving that idea. As I proved to Astarte during 30 days of vidding meme I try not to think to much about how I vid.

@<b>obsessive24</b> with Astarte sometimes I forget that that we never met. You have no idea how weird it is to have a dream about hanging out with someone you've never seen in person.

@<b>astarte</b> I have to love Denis now. And I love we've gotten to a place where we can speak for each other.

[astarte]

I already told you that plenty of times, but I find it fascinating how you approach a project, because it differs so much from my own way. Even in slash vids or constructed realities you ground yourself much more in canon and structure it around plot points, while I go where the mood takes me.

And I love how you and Denis interact - it's so cute.

[xandra]

Yes dear and I never understand your method either. I think I always have to bug you about plot at least if it's sometime I know. When its something like spn I just have to guess.

Denis, well I have to share you with him so I guess it's strange. You just like it cause it makes things all about you.

[franzeska]

Nov 14, 2011 9:07:37 GMT -5 obsessive24 said:

As you noted gnat, I think it's a bit nebulous when there's no specific case study. In particular, the concepts of "narrative" and "structure" are both very large and somewhat ill-defined around the edges, so I suspect they'll represent different things to different people.

I definitely sometimes look at vidding meta about narrative or complaints about new vids not having enough or about changing tastes and get confused. On one level, obviously, it's the difference between a vid that tells a story at all and a vid of 50 roundhouse kicks to the head from 50 sources where the entire point is to make the audience go "Awwww, yeah!" Often, though, I'll be thinking What's so great about this 'narrative' and why would it be any better or worse today?

But then I'll look at vids like Mary Van Deusen's Temper of Revenge (her Miami Vice one) or Ready for the Times and feel like I've just read a novel. I literally could not believe the latter was as short as it is. I assumed it was at least twice the length (and not because I was bored--and it's a pairing I don't like). One thing that I noticed because of the relatively limited material for that pairing and my familiarity with it, is that the vid was picking up canon moments that are central focal points for fanon. So it's not just an interesting shot of someone turning in a doorway or looking at someone else, it's that moment from episode X that half the fic starts with.

Picking memorable moments from canon obviously does let you tell more canon story with fewer frames, but I think picking moments with a lot of attached fanon magnifies that effect, especially when you're vidding a non-canon pairing. The more of an obsessive shipper fanbase there is that is reading the same fic and watching the same vids, the more you can take half a second of footage and get an entire non-canon plotline out of it...

...and the more difficult it is to do a vid that's just about evoking a feeling because the audience is immediately attaching a lot of literal, complex, plot-involving context to every clip. That's tough to do for an audience that doesn't know your source, but I think you can if there are a lot of visual cliches or you're mocking some general trope everyone knows.

Everyone I showed it to immediately understood my Crying Freeman vid despite never having heard of the fandom because the story of a hitman falling in love with his target is just such a cliche. (I was interested to see how much of the rest of the plot people were able to guess too, like the parallel hero and villain romances, even from a couple of very brief shots because the way they're set up in the original is, again, a giant cliche that we're programmed to recognize.) A lot of parody pairing vids seem to work like this too.

I'm not sure how the shape of the music affects this as a general rule. A song with extremely literal and intelligible lyrics like Temper of Revenge helps a lot. But a song with a lot of strong associations for your audience works just as well, I think. Give people the opening strains of a power ballad and closeups of two angsty faces, and they know where the plot is going.

Oh... actually... When I hear a power ballad, I do tend to assume the vid is going to tell a story with a concrete plot.