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Post by voodoochild on Nov 19, 2011 0:55:26 GMT -5
Um, this is mildly terrifying, but I seem to have partially popped my vidding cherry. It's a song by the Indelicates, called "America", and the source is HBO's Boardwalk Empire. I've had the idea for this vid ever since watching the BE pilot - the way Scorsese filmed it on an epic scale, the excellent establishing shots of all the characters, and the way that it just FITS - and I wished I had the skill to do it justice. I started outlining it in a simple word doc (congrats to those of you who use fancy outlining stuff!), and just kept playing with it as we got shiny new canon to use. What finally pushed me to take the plunge into actual vidding - besides thatyourefuse's signature poking, prodding, and outright threatening me - was this fantastic group of vidders. Relatively small, supportive, and a designated forum to post in. So I downloaded WMM and VirtualDub, started playing around, and I seem to have 0:48 of Actual Vid. Which you can download and watch here.I know the beginning's wonked - that's what happens when you have to slow it to 0.25 speed since it's superfast in the source - and that it doesn't really hit the beat until the pan around Jimmy at 0:17. But I accidentally and fortuitously got elevator doors to open on-beat and Rothstein to remove his hat to a cymbal crash, so I'm over the moon. Any help/comments/encouragement you could give would be greatly appreciated. I'm absolute pants at most of the technical stuff (I just barely know that I'd set it to widescreen, let alone any aspect ratios), and I've only played around a little bit with effects. A bit of black and white at the beginning, slowing the speed, a short pan for that shot of Al, and color tweaking because Meyer's always in brown and he disappears. In regards to the rest of the vid, I do have a clear plan/outline of what I want to focus on. Verse #1This little England, it's dingy and it's mean They're flirting with her mewling gods and petty jealousies Those edited-reader rebels with their simulated causes Their weak-chinned snarls and red guitars, I disregard them allThis is all Nucky POV. His family struggles with Eli and his father, the brotherly-scuffle from 205. The power plays with the Commodore (and Gillian, because this vid is going to be a wasteland of women except for Margaret), and I want to tie Lucy into that. The hit on Colosimo will be the end of the verse. Chorus #1When they pin me to the wall, I'll say "I'm with America With godless America, I'll stand and I'll fall" Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America It must be America, or nothing at allStill Nucky, but bringing back Jimmy to show his opposition. The two assassination attempts. Jimmy walking out of Babette's after ordering the hit. Definitely using the scene from 107 where Nucky sets his childhood house on fire for the second line. (I really, really want to cut three stills together on the beat for each "must be America" - first pilot!Jimmy, soldier!Jimmy, and Corleone!Jimmy; then a shot of Torrio, Rothstein, and Nucky in AC during that roundtable - but that's probably WAY too ambitious.) Short instrumental transition to the Young Turks (Jimmy, Richard, Al, Lucky, and Meyer), but also bringing in Chalky as the foil. Verse #2The pop stars who write operas and make fatuous remarks The theory-quoting upstarts who snort fair-trade coke in parksThe Turks, in all their baby!gangster glory. Richard sniping Sheridan, Al bashing the guy with the bottle, Meyer trying to bribe Chalky (Meyer as the "theory-quoting upstart" was probably one of the first bits of this vid I ever "saw"), and Lucky banging Gillian cutting immediately to her and Jimmy (because though I love their whackjob love triangle, it shouldn't feature too heavily in this). I find myself a loner and I find myself bereft I find myself agreeing with Bill O'Reilly more than the leftChalky, pure and simple. His family and how he's too "colored" for them. The way he's stayed loyal to Nucky when no one else has. Chorus #2When they pin me to the wall, I'll say "I'm with America With godless America, I'll stand and I'll fall" Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America It must be America, or nothing at allMostly un-outlined, though there are a few bits I have to bring in. The Klan/lynching scenes with Chalky in both season openers; war flashbacks with Jimmy and Richard, the "would you fight for me" scene; Gillian talking Jimmy into the hit. Long instrumental section that I don't have outlined, but needs to establish Margaret and her connection to Nucky. Chorus #3When they pin me to the wall, I'll say "I'm with America With godless America, I'll stand and I'll fall" Though it cuts me to my soul that it must be America It must be America, or nothing at allThis is just the female singer, so I connect her to Margaret, our female lead. This will be a lot of her story - abusive husband, two small children, becoming Nucky's mistress, striking back physically at Lucy and psychologically at Nucky and financially at her brother, her struggles with Catholicism. And then there's one more chorus to tie it all together - which, if I do, it will be a miracle. So there you have it, fire away.
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Post by thatyourefuse on Nov 19, 2011 0:57:37 GMT -5
You. My jaw. Still dropped.
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 19, 2011 1:00:15 GMT -5
You're still my favorite-est of Em's. Just so you know.
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Post by obsessive24 on Nov 19, 2011 4:57:08 GMT -5
Ooh, a BE vid! Awesome! I particularly liked the flourish at 0:12, and the way you sped up the camera motion at 0:17 in line with the pacing picking up, and the tone of the clip at 0:23 (or maybe it's the panning movement that I particularly like, either way, that was a very effective clip choice for me.) Also loved the movement on the intro of Al at 0:29. In contrast, I think the clip choices that worked less well for me were the more static ones with mostly face shots and a bit of talky face. Rothstein's two boys (forget their names), for example. I forget what context those clips came from, so they may have been important character moments, although I think visually they don't work as well as some of the others the way you've been building them up in the vid, which is to say impactful character intros. I'm not sure how much concrit I should give at this stage, cos personally I don't want other people's opinions to muddy my vision until I've at least got a complete draft, but I figured since it's your first vid and you're asking, I'd just throw this out there, and if it doesn't work for you, just let me know and I'll shut up, okay? I'm a bit confused why the opening clip alone is B&W? Rewatching it, I wonder if it'll be a smoother transition if you could keyframe the second clip so it starts out B&W then gradually changes to colour? Should work nicely with the flags visual, too. I agree the flags feel too slow. You know what would be a great image? Using that space to accommodate the flags shot, but then also cutting to a shot that moves similarly (tilting upwards) but of another symbolic object with a contrasting notion. Like guns or liquor. I don't have a particular clip in mind, but I'm sure in the near 2 seasons of BE there must be a clip like that somewhere? Surely? For me, the outline is narratively very ambitious because it seems like you want to cover off a LOT of areas from a multitude of POVs. It may well work as an overview with a shifting focus on various characters and themes, although I'm a little concerned about how much each storyline is going to come through, how much connective tissue there'll be transitioning from one to the next, and - as you noted - how the final chorus is going to serve to tie it all together. I suspect you may need to cut a few ideas and streamline your vision further down the track, but either way, that should resolve itself as you go on.
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 19, 2011 9:09:00 GMT -5
Eeeeee, Nicky, thank you for the feedback. You're right, I asked for it, and it's definitely helpful.
Excellent. I thought that was one of the better establishing shots of Nucky, his glad-handing and support amongst the community.
Augh, I could write a treatise right now on The Problem with Vidding Luciano and Lansky, which is that they really don't get those impactful character intros (Al doesn't either, but that badass shot is from 202, and I suspect the director of that episode just *really* likes Al). Luciano's a hothead, which is what I was going for with the shot of him explaining he could solve Rothstein's Nucky problem by shooting him in the head. And Lansky doesn't get his big moment until ten episodes in, when he very calmly talks his way out of Nucky, Jimmy, and Chalky killing him for setting up a hit. I think it's hard to throw that in there without context; you don't know WHY Lansky on his knees being calm is badass.
You're right. I'll go do that with the second clip.
Hmmm, that would work. I'll have to ponder what shot I could throw in there.
Definitely. The outline I had before I started vidding was even more ambitious, so I've been adjusting it with my learning curve. I found different shots that worked as well/better, I played with different POV's, so I have no doubt that'll be the case as I continue vidding. I think it really wants to be a Nucky (and all his loner excess, plus Chalky and Margaret) vs Jimmy (and the Turks, and family/loyalty) vid, so if I keep that in mind, I think it could work.
Again, thank you so much. This is amazing feedback, and your opinion means a lot!
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 19, 2011 20:06:57 GMT -5
And here goes version 2.0, which is the entire instrumental intro. I've fixed the coloring in the beginning, making the band, the flags, the betting, and the map of Jersey all black and white, then bringing in the color when the booze is unveiled. I still don't know what to do about Charlie and Meyer's intro shots - I'll keep working on the rest and see if I can find anything. I think there may be a bit too much Charlie in the new clips, but I needed stuff to introduce Eli, and the scene where Charlie ticks off Nucky and Eli seemed to work and display Nucky's temper. And that is it for today, because I need beer and fries at my favorite bar in an hour or so. * After I posted this, I was tweaking clips again and I cannot believe it took me so long to tie in the booze funeral clip from the pilot! So yes, the beginning is better.
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Post by thatyourefuse on Nov 19, 2011 22:32:13 GMT -5
Oh, wow, you, this is coming along so nicely and the new clips work really well, and I am SO IN AWE of your speed and the way this is starting to flow, I can't even tell you.
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Post by legoline on Nov 20, 2011 3:23:44 GMT -5
Ooooooooh, Boardwalk Empire! I still haven't watched past 1x01 but I really want to. I should. I really like where this is going, I particularly like the first seconds of the intro because they establish such a nice atmosphere and it's also a great intro for Nucky. However I do second Nicky (haha, Nicky and Nucky--okay, I'll stop now) on this: choice for me.) Also loved the movement on the intro of Al at 0:29. In contrast, I think the clip choices that worked less well for me were the more static ones with mostly face shots and a bit of talky face. For someone like me, who hasn't watched past one episode it's really hard to figure out what's happening or what the characters are about because I see them talk, but I don't see them do anything that would help me understand the characters. Just tossing that in there *puts BE back on to-watch-list*
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 20, 2011 9:30:48 GMT -5
Thanks so much, legoline! You should definitely catch up with Boardwalk, it's SO GOOD.
*makes note* Okay, so I need a non-talky shot that establishes them. Hmm. I mean, Charlie's pretty much a hothead and Meyer's the voice of reason, and most of what Meyer *does* is talk. I'm continuing my rewatch, so I'll keep that in mind.
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mswyrr
New to the Pub
Posts: 19
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Post by mswyrr on Nov 21, 2011 5:53:49 GMT -5
Hey! Okay, so I finally did some feedback-y comments. I hope they're helpful at all.
1. I really like the opening. REALLY REALLY. I love that you've got the piano piece that opens it, with the black and white, and it sort of establishes things. The history, sense of place. Rah-rah patriotism, greed, white men in a room making decisions about land and resources. But then you've got that awesome guitar coming in when the bootlegged booze is revealed and the color comes in and suddenly it's NOW. The making of the 20th Century as we know it, Prohibition's influence reshaping criminal enterprise, creating a template for what gangs would become, and as a precursor to the endless, pointless War on Drugs.
2. There's a resonance between the opening parade scene and Nucky's glad-handing that works nicely. Like patriotic displays, he constructs a pleasant facade around the ugly truth.
3. But Jimmy very much isn't part of that.He's just come out of the most modern of all hells, this new mechanized war, something that nobody understands if they weren't there. Certainly not Nucky with his flags and his charade of nonsense. And I loved that Jimmy comes in as w/ the extra bit of guitar as he's standing outside the meeting where Nucky is speaking -- on the outside looking in, completely over all the self-congratulatory bullshit that's going on inside. He standing there with his cigarette while the people inside like to imagine they're living in a different world, one where their Prohibition thing will actually make anything better -- and he knows they're not.
4. 00:25ish and the handshake between Richard and Jimmy! YES. They're both so torn up, scars left in their bodies and hearts like the gashes over in France, and nobody gets it but them. I think you've really beautifully set up the division between Jimmy and Nucky, with this capping it off. Nucky would pity Richard and fob him off with some pablum. But Jimmy sees himself in that man, and finds a lethal ally.
5. My main thing would be that it seemed like, as you went on, you kept introducing characters. And it's such a large cast, idk if there's time. Hmm... You mentioned that you want to focus on Nucky et al vs. Jimmy et al? Maybe it would be helpful to try to bring in their gangs with clips that have them in there? Maybe even bringing them in without a special introduction, but just showing their significance within the arcs Jimmy and Nucky are on. With clips that maybe do double-duty as part of the arc of your vid. Richard and Jimmy really works within that, imo. It's us meeting Richard, and it's Jimmy making decisions about who he is now. Unwittingly setting up his most loyal lieutenant in the coming war with Nucky.
I could see you working that in already, with the scenes establishing relationships... but idk, at 00:29, when Al comes in, I was thinking about his first scene with Jimmy when they're smoking by the cars, and wondered if introducing him in relation to Jimmy would be interesting? I could see why you chose that clip, tho, because it has great movement. Hmmm. The other thing was the dinner Nucky has with Rothstein around 00:47. It seemed like it wasn't saying a lot about the two of them because they're both on their best behavior -- maybe going in for a more raw scene, like the one later on where R is holding L back from Nucky? And trust that the viewer, whether familiar with the source or not, can jump in with that w/o introduction?
IDK. Does that make sense? If not, please ignore! lol
6. Jimmy at the Memorial Day event! Nucky thinking that he can't handle the polished stuff Nucky does, but Jimmy stepping up. The way that the two of them have to become different, taking on elements of each other's style, to survive. LOVE IT. THESE TWO OMG.
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 21, 2011 11:04:32 GMT -5
mswyrr, you are fabulous! I have the biggest, stupidest grin on my face right now, because you GOT IT. I mean, half of the underlying stuff was not in the forefront of my mind while making this, but you're right, it works.
That's definitely why I went for the gambling and land-grabbing shots. Nucky is such a plotter; he's an idea man. He can speechify until the cows come home about ideals and power plays and brave new worlds where he rules and lives like even *more* of a king than he already does . . . but he lacks the guts/desire to physically bring it into being. You'll never see him with a gun in his hand, shooting an enemy. And that's why I love Jimmy's line from the pilot - that Nucky "can't be half a gangster". Not with men like Capone, like Luciano, like Lansky, and like Jimmy himself around. The Turks are going to rule America in less than ten years, we know this. And the Old Guard, the guys like Torrio who are too nice, like Nucky who's too weak, like Rothstein who's too sanitized, they're going to either be eliminated in a blaze of glory or simply fade away.
Which is why I brought in the dinner scene from the pilot. Nucky and Torrio and Colosimo and Rothstein are having a nice, civilized dinner about expanding their bootlegging businesses . . . while Luciano seethes over being insulted, Rothstein's plotting Nucky's death, and Torrio's about to have Colosimo killed for disagreeing about the alcohol business.
I think there's another aspect to that scene, though. Yeah, Jimmy's over the bullshit, but he still wants to be on the inside. He's been to hell and back, and he wants to be that loving husband and Nucky's heir apparent again. Like if he can get that back, he can be "normal" again, he can be just like Nucky. There's such a look of eagerness on his face as he watches Nucky speak, and again later in the dinner at Babette's. But that's what the pilot establishes - for both him and Al - that no one takes them seriously yet, and that they're going to have to wise up and take what they want.
Yesyesyes. There's a bit later in the song - the second chorus and "though it cuts me to my soul" - where I want to juxtapose Richard's facial scar and Jimmy's leg wound. And then follow it with the shot of Jimmy cradling Richard's head in the "would you fight for me?" scene. Broken men, building each other up. Better to be loyal to a man who's suffered as much as you have than to a man you're nothing but an embarrassment to.
When I used that shot of Al with the motion, there was always something that was off about it. And you're right, using Al's actual introduction gives it more impact. It ties him more strongly to Jimmy, and the reason his scene in the pilot IS so memorable is because you think he's just some kid like Jimmy (former soldier, flunky for a powerful mob boss, wise-cracking and irreverent), and then he says his name. It's such a perfect "...holy SHIT" moment. You know what he'll become.
And similarly, I'm going to replace the shots of Luciano and Lansky with shots that tie them more closely to Jimmy. I think that could work just as well in reverse - showing Nucky's allies in the same manner.
I LOVE THAT SCENE. I love that Nucky does that purely out of childish spite - like, "here kid, see if you can handle this" - and you expect Jimmy to stutter and stumble and he DOESN'T. He gives this perfect, heartwrenching speech and has the crowd eating out of his hand.
Thank you so much for the brilliant feedback. It's so useful and brilliant, let me tell you. I can't wait to go home and start tweaking with it again.
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mswyrr
New to the Pub
Posts: 19
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Post by mswyrr on Nov 21, 2011 12:01:02 GMT -5
mswyrr, you are fabulous! I have the biggest, stupidest grin on my face right now, because you GOT IT. I mean, half of the underlying stuff was not in the forefront of my mind while making this, but you're right, it works. YAY. I'm glad some of my comments helped. This vid is going to be AWESOME. I'm excited to follow what you're doing with it and cheer you on! Hmm. Yeah, now that you explain it, I can see what you want it to do. I think part of the problem is that the scene's feeling in the episode is a product of dialogue, a slow build up of tension leading up to that scene, and visuals. But in the vidding format there's just the visuals (in very short slices) which, by themselves, have a diminished impact. So if you could get a moment where Rothstein and Nucky are looking at each other and their expressions shift from phony to grim or ((flail)) something like that, then you could have a visual that quickly does the work of a whole scene that unfortunately can't translate as well in quick clips alone?? Or maybe cut in closer on something -- a clip of the seething expression on Lucky's face right after a clip of Nucky and Rothstein giving each other phony smiles? I have, like, very little experience here! But one of the things I had to fight at first was the urge to hew toward reproducing the beats of a scene whole rather than darting in and grabbing only what I needed. So... the initial draft of the vid I posted had these sequences where I'd give the events in condensed but complete form. I was trying to preserve what the show had done, but there wasn't any way to really do that. As part of slaying the talky face, my beta encouraged me to just rush in, wrench away an expression here or a quick touch there, and then rush out to twist it around rather than staying for context. It was awkward, but then really freeing. So... ((shrug)) pillaging the source more brazenly might be as fun/helpful for you as it was for me. Oh, damn! I love the nuance you've got on this. Awesome. I wasn't even thinking of it on that level, but you're so right. There's a grief and longing to Jimmy's situation. He can't ever go back, he can't ever be satisfied with what Nucky's got to offer him. But if he could feel warm inside with the other people again... ((FLAIL))((DRAWS HEARTS AROUND THIS)) Glad to be helpful. Thanks to you for choosing to put the time and thought into making this vid!
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 23, 2011 21:57:49 GMT -5
I had a nice lengthy post about how excited I am about this draft, but my computer (which has been freezing lately) decided to eat it. It involved my rambling at length about the different shots I used/replaced and how my plans for the theme have changed, so consider yourselves lucky. Here is Version #3, which has taken me forever to tweak. Much love for all the feedback and support I've already gotten. Ya'll are amazing.
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Post by legoline on Nov 30, 2011 16:59:44 GMT -5
Oh yes! I love the changes that you've made! No other feedback than "Keep going, please"
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Post by voodoochild on Nov 30, 2011 20:05:36 GMT -5
Version 4.0I have achieved Verse #1! And it actually bears resemblance to the original outline, though there's no tie-in to Colosimo. I was thinking about later verses, and I think the entire escalating chain of gang violence could be its own section (there's an instrumental break after the second chorus). There are certain things I love (Chalky and his lynched driver, Nucky and Eli's shoving match, Lucy and how she constructs her sexuality for Nucky), and things I don't (the Gillian clip doesn't really have context, and I threw it in to tie her into Nucky's storyline, that shot of Jimmy and Al and its weird timing). The clip of the baby!gangster roundtable is off a bit, which is screwing with the timing on the elevator clip, and something feels off about the clip of Nucky and Eddie at the car leading into the Lucy clips. I also think I may be introducing Margaret a bit early. But she's important to Nucky's storyline (and I really like her as "the edited-reader rebel"), and she'll come back into focus with the third chorus, so I suppose it works. I think I just have repeated-viewing malaise, because all I can see is how rough it still is. But! I achieved Verse 1, and I'm excited for more, and that's all that matters.
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